# 27 - Anxiety Is Actually 5 Types of Fear

Episode 27

Hey, everybody, this is Rick Lewis once again with The Follow Through Formula Podcast. This is episode number 27. Back on episode six I had my good friend Dr John Souza join me for a spontaneous conversation. I'm doing it again today. He's probably been suspecting I might spring this on him again—he’s sitting here smiling and nodding. I got really good feedback on that episode. Once again, we don't know what we're going to talk about, but it's bound to be rich and useful because John is insightful and wonderful that way.

RL: Welcome back, John.

JS: Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

RL: It has been a couple of weeks since you and I first spoke, in the very early stages of my podcast. I was six days in. This is day 27. It has been an incredible ride for me. I want to introduce a subject to you for us to consider together today. Let’s talk about how the small things that we do every day, day in and day out, are so important to the kind of experience we have in our lives.

The small habits we have, that we repeat either with ourselves or in relationship to other people, have a big impact. When it comes to follow through, I think often there's this idea that follow through is something big, “Okay, I'm gonna go for that interview for that job or send out a letter to see if they'll publish my manuscript.” But follow through doesn’t have to be something that's one big thing that we do. It's what we're doing all day long, every day in really small doses that make a big difference.

JS: Yeah, so this is a really important point. I think what came to my mind is our thoughts, how every day there is an invitation to perpetuate a habit of thought. In fact, just this morning I received an email from an online musician group that I'm working with, about the importance of mindset, about how musicians tend to think small. They don't think big enough, which is interesting. 

RL: So hold on one sec, just in case people tuning in to this episode didn't hear our first episode. You are in the middle of making this transition from being a long time clinical psychologist and a family and marriage therapist, to a previous life love, which is being a musician. You're in the middle of this big life leap to do that. I just wanted to let people who are listening know that.

JS: Thank you. Yeah, right. I'm trying to reconstitute my musicianship so that my life is more complete in that way. As I've been doing that I have been noticing the day to day thoughts that I'm having about that practice. I could think this is impossible. Or I could think that there's no way that I could ever be good enough. All those little ways that I could talk myself out of it are little habits. This isn't news! I mean, people know about cognitive, behavioral therapy, neural linguistic programming has been around for decades. That is what I thought of, Rick, when you said habit—not physical, but mental habits.

RL: Well, it's really the seed of action. All our thoughts are the seed state of the action that follows. And if we're not paying attention at that level to what those thoughts are, then they wind up getting traction first. They become more magnified in our mind, especially if it's unconscious, and then they bleed over into behavior. That then has a big impact.

I've got a good story that relates to this. Years ago, when I was working on my book, Confident Under Pressure, I woke up one morning to find that my shoulder was completely messed up, totally out of whack, so much so that I couldn't even lift my arm above shoulder level. The agility and mobility of my arm was completely restricted, and I could not figure out why this had occurred. I hadn't fallen down on it. I wasn't lifting weights or doing any kind of weird exercise with it. It was just that my shoulder was suddenly blown out. It was weird.

I went to the doctor about three days later. I had been thinking maybe it would work itself out, but it didn't. So, I went to the doctor and the doctor examined me. And you know how it is, when you go see an expert and they tell you what you already know. He says, “Yeah, your shoulder’s messed up,” and I'm like, “Yeah, no kidding.” He told me that he had seen it before, it's called frozen shoulder, and that it was going to take me six months of physiotherapy to work it out and get through it.

I thought, “What?! This is bizarre. This is just so weird. This thing randomly happens, and now I need six months of physical therapy to fix it?” He wrote me a prescription to go see the physiotherapist. But between the time of the prescription and the physio appointment, which was about a week later, I felt this big question mark hanging over my head: “What is going on with my shoulder?”

I really wanted to know, so I started watching everything that I was doing to see if I could figure out if there was something that was causing this, something that was out of my awareness. A few days into it, when I went to sit down at my computer to start writing, what I noticed is that every time I got into thinking mode where I was really trying to figure out what to say and how to say it, I would lean forward with my right elbow on the desk and lean into it so that most of my upper body weight was being held up on my right shoulder. When I was trying to find the right words to say something, that was my thinking posture. I put all my weight on that right elbow and it would translate into my right shoulder. I knew, the moment I caught myself doing that, that was it. That's what I'd been doing to create this problem with my shoulder.

It took me three days of paying careful attention to not doing that, and the whole problem went away! It did not take anywhere near six months of physical therapy. All I had to do was pay attention to how I was using my body in a repeated way, a small action way.

JS: Wow, that’s a powerful story!

RL: What are the small habits that you're noticing in your shift back to your musicians life? What are some of the small habits you're seeing that are this level of obstacle and hindrance?

JS: Well, actually, I would say less a hindrance and more facilitative is a habit that I'm developing right now. As a family therapist, I've been trained to pay attention to relationships. My relationship with clients and the clients with each other, that's where the healing occurs. So actually, to become a musician or to reconstitute that for myself, I had to start forming new relationships in a meaningful way and maintain, of course, the meaningful relationships that I already have. It's small behaviors like, for example, connecting to people on social medi—not necessarily just for promotional or professional purposes, but really connecting with them as a person so that I'm not just trying to sell them something, I'm not seeing them as just a dollar sign, they are people. There are enough people out there that probably want to connect because of something that I'm interested in that they're interested in, too. And this music is a way to bring it together. It's a slower process, though, than, say, a straight up monetarily based marketing campaign.

So that's been the habit for me is paying attention to relationships.  I’ve got to check in to social media every day, attending to those relationships. Like we've talked about before in this process, I have to pay attention to my wife and my daughter. Because if those relationships aren't solid, none of this other stuff is going to last. Right? I have to be intentional about keeping a weekly appointment with my wife, one hour every week on Tuesdays from 6 to 7 p.m. We just sit, have coffee and talk. No screens, no talk about kids, we’re just talking about each other, how we're doing.

Another habit that I am developing is referring to myself as a musician on a more regular basis—this has been huge. This is something that you actually started, so I'm blaming you for this. It was months ago that you posed this question to me, I'll never forget it when you said, “Well, what if you refer to yourself as a musician?” The light bulb went off! It was so scary to do that for the first time. But I remember about a week later we got together again and I told you I had tried it. I told somebody I was a musician first, and then I mentioned that I was a therapist—the other way round from how I usually refer to myself. And since then, it's become really comfortable and important for me to use that moniker on a regular basis.

RL: When you talk about that small step of just saying “I'm a musician,” it seems so tiny, but it's actually a very big action.

JS: It's huge, actually.

There's a theory called symbolic interaction that speaks to this in a more academic way. It says that there is a process of role making and roll taking from the time that we're just little ones. We grow up watching people in different roles, and we start to take on those roles, and we start to make those roles our own. It's a huge part of our identity development. There are different roles that we take on. Whatever role we take on the most becomes the largest part of our identity.

And so, if we invoke the role of podcaster or author or speaker on a daily basis, perhaps multiple times a day, then yeah, we start to really embody that in our actions. Like you said, thoughts are the seed of action. Our actions will follow suit. So I'm a musician. Do I have any music? Yes, but musicians don't just make music and stop. What am I working on now? Every day I'm thinking about what's my next piece? I'm in the middle of a piece right now. I'm so excited, I can't wait to wrap it up and share it with you! It has become a habit.

RL: Oh, I can't wait to hear it. It thrills me so much that we were sitting in this same position in these chairs, even though it's remote, a month ago and we were sitting on the nervous edge of “Okay, I think I'm gonna try and be a musician…” And “Okay, I think I'm gonna try and be a podcaster…” and only a month later I can say, from where I'm sitting, I'm a podcaster. I'm saying that with a degree of bodily confidence and authority that was nowhere in sight just a month ago. I've been able to accomplish internally that sense of inhabiting this identity and feeling comfortable in it just by doing it every day. And I'm not spending all day at it. I'm spending a couple hours a day doing this, and the difference is profound. It's so immense. And I know the same is true for you with your music that you've been producing. 

JS: Yeah. Yeah. Just that juxtaposition of time is powerful. It's a powerful reminder of how quickly things can shift in our lives if we do things consistently, for better or for worse. You know, if we're consistently inactive, we will start to feel pretty crappy in not too much time. If we're consistently active, we’ll start to feel a little bit better.

RL: The way you just said that is actually what makes it such an alive consideration for me. If we're consistently active, it is remarkable how quickly things can change, how quickly we can find ourselves adopting a new position, or finding a new sense of traction or authority in our lives. If you just are consistent.

JS: Coming back to relationships, I think it's really hard to be consistent, especially in new things, without solid relationships supporting you. That's why community groups are so important. No one is in this canoe alone, at least no one that gets very far. We always need people supporting us, paddling along with us.

Being a musician has been difficult in that there's been doubt in my mind, and it is a kind of echo chamber where the doubt can just get amplified. So getting outside of myself and giving my music to others to listen to and getting their feedback has been incredibly helpful. Watching others in their struggles, listening to their music or listening to their successes has given me a sense of what's possible. People who want to make their life leap should join your community. I mean that! The culture that you're creating, Rick, can really help people shift. I know because I'm doing it. I didn't even mean for this to be a “life leap” for me in the way that you are presenting it with other people. It's just that through our connection you have rubbed off on me, naturally. What you are doing with people, how you're creating an opportunity for them to do this intentionally is powerful. So, thank you for that.

RL: Oh, it's my pleasure. Something in me just wants to see the evidence of people waking up that way, in the way their face lights up, in the tone in their voice, and the quality of their attention. I want to see that in people.

Well, you've activated it in me. I mean, you've helped me rediscover my purpose in a very new and mature way. It's not ego driven. It's a soul sort of project. It's a soul purpose. It's helping me to trim other areas of my life that aren't serving that purpose anymore. It's bringing joy into my life in a way that I haven't experienced in years. I don't know if I'm going to be able to make a living off of it, but I'm going to be very intentional about that being a reality for me. I continue to have my other career and they work really well together. So, for anybody listening to this, I'd say absolutely it's possible to make a life leap, and to maintain other things that are also essential for you. If you really dial into what your purpose is, that thing that really energizes you and motivates you, that fills your cup, it will only energize the other parts of your life that are important to you. It will actually de-vitalize in a good way, in a pruning way, the other parts of your life that aren't serving your purpose.

RL: You mentioned that a minute ago, and it jumped out for me. I wanted to go back to that because so often people are trying to curtail or refrain from bad habits without the presence of the thing that would naturally push those to the side as a secondary effect. Dropping bad habits could be a non-issue if you are doing what you love to do. The things that aren't serving us may just drop away because we’ve got better things to do once we discover what those better things are. 

I keep coming back the piece that's in between where we stand now and what the thing is that enlivens us. It’s this piece about anxiety. The anxiety we get about moving toward what feels good, what gives us energy, what lights us up. I just don't know if I've ever met anybody who doesn't have some version of that kind of very old cellular injunction that's present for them, that makes them put a little lid on the things that really bring them to life.

JS: Yeah, when you use the word anxiety, I typically think of anxiety and depression as junk terms. I'd rather call them what they are at their core, which for anxiety is fear, for depression it’s sadness or pain or hurt.

RL: Okay, that makes sense. That makes total sense.

JS: Right. So if I say I'm scared, well, I know exactly what to do with that.

RL: Wow, that's amazing. I had never even thought of it that way because I keep using the word anxiety, but it is totally, just fricking fear. I'm just scared to do it.

JS: And there is some literature on fear that suggests there are really only five basic types of fear. So, if you narrow your anxiety down to fear, now you can further narrow it down to what specific flavor of fear is it?

RL: Let me guess. Public speaking? Um, no. Tell me what they are.

JS: Okay, so the first one: across the board all humans fear extinction. This is the fear of annihilation or ceasing to exist. Death.  

RL: Yep.

JS: The second one is fear of mutilation. There's a fear of physically getting maimed in some way.

RL: Oh, God. Okay…

JS: I know, right? The third one is a fear of a loss of autonomy. A fear of not being able to be mobile, being paralyzed or restricted, enveloped, overwhelmed, trapped, imprisoned, that kind of loss of autonomy.

RL: Ok. Yeah.

JS: The fourth one is a fear of separation or abandonment, rejection, loss of connectedness, becoming a non-person.

RL: That's big.

JS: And the fifth one, it's ego death, the fear of humiliation or shame or any other profound self-disapproval.

RL: Wow. Okay, wait. What's the difference between those last two? Because those seem to cross over together for me. The separation and being ostracized from people or judged.

JS: Well, the five fears correlate with Maslow's hierarchy of needs that we're familiar with.

At the very base level, we need food, air, water. That correlates with the fear of annihilation.

The next one up is we need physical security and safety, and we need employment, we need resources. That takes care of the fear of dismemberment and mutilation.

Next up you have the need for love and belonging. And that is that loss of autonomy fear, that we will be entrapped somewhere.

Next we have esteem. That separation is separation from confidence, achievement, the respect of others—that we won't be seen as those things in others’ eyes.

And this last one is that ego death that's related to morality, self-actualization, creativity, spontaneity. The difference is that separation is really about our relationship with others. And ego death is more of a separation from ourselves.

RL: Okay. Wow. And those two would really play into each other, though, because if you're if, because part of the self actually actualization process of really being oneself may include a way you have to be with others. And so you could

JS: It has to. You cannot know yourself outside of a relationship with another.

RL: Oh, man. Wow.

JS:  To bring it back down to just really simple brass tacks, I would advise anybody in this life leap process, if you're feeling anxiety, recognize it as a fear. Identify whether you are afraid of humiliation, or afraid of losing your autonomy, etc., and then lean into those fears.

RL: So for me, sitting in front of a microphone on my computer, fears of mutilation are not the ones that are coming up. But the ones about separation from others, being judged, and the fear that I won't find a way to fully connect with who I am, those are big. Those are so present in my daily activity.

This is a really good  distinction about fear. It’s just being afraid. That seems super, super useful to just admit that's what's going on.

Well, you have to go. I know I put you right up to the edge of another appointment. But I'm so glad we got to talk. Remind us once again where people can find your music so they could go listen to this stuff you're putting out right now.

JS: Awesome, thanks, Rick. I'm excited to say that now you can find my music under the name The John Sojourn. My name is John Souza and this is the John Souza Journey. So it's the John Sojourn. It's mushing together my last name and the journey. Go to Spotify. I'm on iTunes. You can go to all the major music distributors now and find my music.

RL: I have been listening to your music late at night when I'm tired and I've got a lot of work to do and I feel like just hanging it in. I put your music on and it's so nourishing of my energy and my spirit and calming, and it's I don't know what I'm listening to. I guess it's just your playlist, but it's sure helping me.

JS: That's awesome. I'm so glad. Thank you for this opportunity. Thanks for the support and thanks for these podcasts. They're super helpful.

RL: My pleasure. Thanks for jumping in again and we'll talk soon.

JS: Alright, my friends! Take care.

RL: Hey, thanks everybody for joining me in my conversation with Dr. John Souza. I always love talking to him. This is Rick Lewis and this has been episode 27 of The Follow Through Formula Podcast. I'll be back tomorrow.